Reasons why you shouldn’t use flash for anything other than video and audio streaming
I can’t tell you how many times I have come across people and so called web developers who think that Flash is a good platform choice for their client. If you had a Web site designed and you wanted flash, I am going to give you a run-down of why you made the worst choice ever. First let me say that this is a tough topic, some designers love Flash and can’t steer away from it. Don’t get me wrong, I know there is some really cool things you can do with it, so I respect it. But honestly, the platform lacks the simplest of functions that make it a horrible choice for your clients and for your own endeavors.
Remember, I am only here to help you!
So, why not use Flash? Flex? (Excluding Ruby on Rails, which is not Flash but recently is becoming apart of the family)
First things first, simple functions are eliminated while using flash. No matter how hard you try, you won’t be able to get away from the function loss. I can’t tell you how many times I have been to a restaurants Web site to find a menu for food and find myself spending 20 minutes just navigating! You want to know why? Because I can’t use the BACK BUTTON! But right when my intuition seeps through my Flash with-held functions, and I accidentally click the back button. Then I am immediately brought to a preloader to wait for the Flash to show me a great 2 minute introduction AGAIN.
Second, but not to be mistaken as not important. Any search engine optimization you plan on doing, won’t be as good as anything with actual HTML, XML, or any other form of TEXT. I know, you have amazing skills and can make actual selectable text in Flash. But be honest with yourself, it looks bad. For the people who don’t even make actual text in Flash, what if someone wants to copy and paste your information? Aside from the domain being one of the things that Google spiders in its genius engine, you would have no way of getting any unique visitors if it was not for the 10 people misspelling the business’ name. Google cannot spider any of the other keywords in your pages when there is no actual text to spider. I am willing to make a bet that I have more unique visitors than anyone with a Flash Web site.
Third, and most time consuming. Whatever you do, no matter how hard you try, Flash will never have a content management system. I am sorry, but you cannot blog with Flash. One of the top ways to have a public voice and the freedom of speech, cannot be accomplished with Flash. Even a simple “news” section for your client is going to be a pain in the ass with Flash.
Fourth, I haven’t seen any Flash verification tools on W3C. If there is, please tell me, because I can’t tell if your Flash even has a valid markup. Having code available to other designers is the tribute to Pink Floyd. I allow everyone to go ahead and press that little button that says “View Source.” If you can learn from my work, why not! I am not greedy, or private. Teach yourself something, thats one of the main golden tickets to life. I would like to see you “View Source” for a Flash Web site to only be dissapointed by the 6 lines of code, one of them being an <embed> function.
The fifth reason, now if you haven’t already been convinced and you still think it is a smart choice, something is wrong with you. No matter how hard you try, updating your Web site with the Flash platform is going to take three times as much time as someone with a WordPress content managed Web site may. I am talking about code, not about content. Your code might get crossed in the action script functions it is filled with and cause you a great deal of pain. While, I can just click a couple of times and create a new page filled with fresh information, all under the heaping 20 minutes it will most likely take me.
I could probably go on and on about how Flash is bad. But I really want to hear from you! Do you use Flash, can you beat my words? Or do you agree with me and want to put Flash to bed? Speak up!
Edit: So you all spoke up. Heres the problem. The SWF back button tweak, just places a navigation back in the actual flash file, 85% of your visitors you should know are computer illiterates. Especially if your designing a Web site for your client. These illiterates will still try and use the browser back button! Sorry guys but 95% of flash Web sites out there don’t even have a navigation of this sort.
The blog, think swedish; http://thinkswedish.com/#ContentHolder:feed=blog&Entries:0=comments+1=903
That is what their permalinks looks like. Please, if you think that is an SEO’d permalink, quit doing Web development. I stopped listening to anything you had to say about SEO once you showed me this.
Myth; Google doesn’t spider inside of Flash. While it knows what XML is, if you don’t tell the spider to look in the XML it won’t. Meaning, a majority of the time it doesn’t happen. Google BOLDS the portion that matches best to your search term. Most times it bolds the URL. If I have to explain to you that it’s not optimized, you should quit Web development AGAIN.
Some of you are correct and smart by saying, “Misuse of flash.” You are completely correct, there is a whole lot of misuse when it comes to flash. To the ones who say, “You just can’t do flash.” I can, but when someone asks me to, I literally cringe. Because I know its more time consuming and less of a smart choice (because of all the reasons I listed). Managing your time better is what having a business is all about, personally, I wouldn’t want my employee’s working flash for 3 weeks that I could have done with beautiful PHP in 1 day.
There is a bridge from what you know, and what your visitors know. Most of the “hater” commenter’s need to know that you haven’t crossed this yet. Again anyone with a difficult literacy of computers is going to have a tough time navigation your Web site. And don’t even get me started on the typography issue. You guys are lucky that sIFR came out, or else I would hate flash ALL together. sIFR is one flash genius for typography lovers, but not for SEO lovers.
Until any of you can show me some better proof, or at least tell me that 90% of the web is not filled with misused shitty flash, you can all call yourselves pwned.
Jan 23rd 2008
Well where can I start, I normally agree what it is that you have to say however I cannot agree with everything in this article.
1. In point #1 what you are describing is bad flash design, and lack of a well developed interface. This is a problem of the design not the software.
2. I agree, but please realize that you actually CAN seo optimize flash, however it does require extremely complicated scripting. Not the easiest option or even the best, but still doable.
3. You can blog with flash, and you can have a content management system. Its called RSS, if you wanted to you could even use wordpress’s backend and have flash aggregate the data. I have actually been a part of building content management systems for flash before so I know that it is possible. While in most cases it does not offer as may options to the administrator, sometimes this is best. (How many times have you done a design and come back to see that the webmaster has added neon green type, and starbursts as far as the eye can see.)
4. This is arguable, there is no need to validate flash because it does not have the problem of multiple rendering engines. Whether or developers can see your code is kind of pointless in my mind, a good developer should be able to re create something without having to look through someone else’s code…
5. Depends on the structure you use when building the site up front. But I will admit that building a site that is easily expandable does take a LOT more effort up front.
I love xHTML / CSS but remember that they are just tools. Just a vehicle for the message, and keep up the good work, your articles are always great reads.
Jan 23rd 2008
I agree with all of your points, it is arguable that it can be done. But if you speaking as a designer who is doing work for others, contemplating time management, developing the tools for flash will take longer than if you chose another platform.
Also, someone only VERY skilled would be able to do those things, and I have not stepped into a design boutique and seen someone who can.
Your right that they are only vehicles. The information is everything, design isn’t the way it looks but the way it works - Steve Jobs
Information Architecture is another discussion, hah!
Jan 23rd 2008
Sorry - but you are just plain wrong on your main points. What you describe are conventional misuses of flash.
1) BACK BUTTON - swfaddress (http://www.asual.com/swfaddress/) enables back button functionality and deep linking
2) FLASH SEO - you can use this technique (http://labs.bigspaceship.com/blog/?p=84) which flash/xml and searchable
Now it’s true that many flash site don’t use these techniques but this extremely true of many ajax sites as well.
now please we really have get off this kind of ranting, it’s not productive for anyone.
Jan 23rd 2008
Most of your reasons for not using flash seem to be based on the misuse of flash. I could write an article on how HTML should never be used because the blink tag and flaming-panda animated gifs make Web pages annoying. Not to mention that you should stay away from JavaScript because it causes popup windows to appear.
Flash should never be used for blogs, and a top-fuel dragster should not be used for carpooling kids to school. Can an agency make a site worthy of a new product launch for Nike like http://www.nikeplus.com/ using WordPress?
Flash and SEO are only an issue if you don’t know what you are doing:
http://blog.deconcept.com/2006/03/13/modern-approach-flash-seo/
For every example of bad Flash I can show you five poorly designed WordPress blogs.
Technology is not the problem, it’s poor design. This type of argument has been made popular on mac vs. pc nerdblogs. You seem like a smart guy. Please, save this kind of nonsense for the people who are selling World of Warcraft hitpoints on eBay.
Jan 23rd 2008
Dude, if you can’t blog on flash then please explain what this website does:
http://thinkswedish.com/#ContentHolder:feed=blog&Entries:0=entriesAll+1=0
Jan 23rd 2008
Actually, you can make a CMS with Flash. Though it’d be completely silly to do so. What you want to do is use Flash remoting and have a PHP, Ruby, etc. back-end. Or maybe use RSS for a bunch of it like someone else here commented, but to disappoint them - you can’t post back to rss =) However, I completely agree with you and there is a lot of flash misuse. Plus reading off files is silly - you ultimately need a database.
Look at propod (thinkswedish) for an example of a blog in flash — but sadly they too suffer from Flash misuse and ultimately run into some of the issues you talk about.
It’s a fusion of web technology that gets the job done and you have to use each technology just right. HTML/CSS and Javascript libraries like jQuery and YUI should definitely be looked at more these days. People need to really expand their thinking.
Nice article. Oh and re: to the last comment - steve jobs is a joke - design is form AND function not just how something works.
Jan 23rd 2008
(Excluding Ruby on Rails, which is not Flash but recently is becoming apart of the family) - This is not true at all. Ruby on Rails has absolutely nothing to do with Flash or Flex.
1. You CAN implement a back button in Flash using swfAddress.
2. Google DOES read Flash content these days.
3. You CAN build a content management system for Flash. It will take you the same amount of time as building a content management system for any other application.
4. Why does anyone need to verify Flash code? If it works, it works. Coding standards are up to the individual programmer. Do you complain that you can’t read any of the PHP code that happens server side?
5. Updating a Flash site takes the same amount of time as it does using Wordpress if you use a content management system to do it (which Wordpress is). Just because there aren’t any free Flash CMS’s out there doesn’t mean that it isn’t possible.
After reading this article it’s pretty clear that you don’t know enough about Flash or Web Development itself to be writing about it. I would suggest reading a few books and trying again in a few years.
Jan 23rd 2008
Hey everyone,
Thanks for commenting. While I was looking at some of the links you guys sent, here is the reason why it’s just for you flash fuckers who love to hump on the macrocrapia platform.
For the CMS and Blog thing, none of the permalinks where correct, I saw a “#content-id#” which isn’t an SEO’d permalink. So I am not even going to talk to you about SEO if you think that a permalink should look like that.
While the back button SWF is cool and all, thats just a navigation within the flash, try and use the ACUTAL back button (which 60% of your visitors will try and do, because they don’t know about computers like you do)
And all I see is most of you trying to stick up for flash like the nerd in highschool who never gets any pussy, “Hey he can do it! Leave him alone, he does it!” There is no actual proof.
And if you think that other flash designers don’t do what you do, then maybe your better than them, but sorry, 85% of flash developers dont do this shit!!!!!! YOU HAVE TO AGREE!!!!!
Jan 23rd 2008
“And if you think that other flash designers don’t do what you do, then maybe your better than them, but sorry, 85% of flash developers dont do this shit!!!!!! YOU HAVE TO AGREE!!!!!”
So your article should have been about the designers, not the technology.
Jan 23rd 2008
http://www.thefwa.com
run through flash cms:
http://www.thefwa.com/taschen2007/fwacms.html
Over 30 million site visits and 1.2 million visits per month.
Google Page Rank 8
Jan 23rd 2008
SEO permalink on think swedish:
http://www.thinkswedish.com/blog/fi/897/Nintendo
Jan 23rd 2008
>”If you wanted to you could even use wordpress’s backend and have flash aggregate the data.”
But why would anyone in their right mind want to? Answers on a postcard, please.
Re the ‘back button’: yes, it’s possible to fix this issue, but there are thousands of Flash sites that break the back button. That doesn’t mean that Flash is bad per se, but it does mean that the majority of Flash-based web sites are.
>”You CAN build a content management system for Flash. It will take you the same amount of time as building a content management system for any other application.”
What planet are you from? A Flash-based CMS cannot be built in the same time, unless the developer is a terminal Flashaholic.
>”After reading this article it’s pretty clear that you don’t know enough about Flash or Web Development itself to be writing about it. I would suggest reading a few books and trying again in a few years.”
Uncalled for. The author makes some very valid points. If Flash is the panacea to usability on the www, then why aren’t more doing it? Most of the Flash sites I use are slow, most break the back button, and most could be developed using plain and boring old XHTML/CSS/Javascript. There is a place for Flash (certain app’s lend themselves to it), but why build an entire site using Flash when a usable and standards compliant site can can developed in less time–and reach a broader audience.
Most 100% Flash-developed sites are crap. Period.
Jan 23rd 2008
@ilovetyography: i love you.
@nick (about permalink): thats odd, I can’t seem to get to the permalink while browsing the site, some use a perma-link, as in an actual link to the correct url, can you help me find the correct permalinks for the articles? And, why doesn’t it do this automatically… much like HYD does…
Jan 23rd 2008
@ Patrick
Go to:
http://www.thinkswedish.com
Look at an article, like Fi 2008 and next to the star rating there is a link icon “share this entry”. Click on it and then copy url and then ctrl v does this http://www.thinkswedish.com/blog/fi/899/Fi_2008
Jan 23rd 2008
@nick: Very nice, but I wonder why it doesn’t work for the first article listed. Looks like something he has to do manually or had to build separately for the permalinks. I wonder if google spiders for those permalinks, or if its more of forward thing. LOL, this would be something the validation would be nice for, to see the code and to see how it works (to all the others who say a validator would be stupid)
Thanks nick for the first intelligent non-confrontational complaining comment! From the other team of course ( the flash team) hahaha
Jan 23rd 2008
@ johno
I wasn’t saying that you would want to, however it is possible that is all that I was saying.
They don’t mean build the CMS in actionscript, it woudl be done in PHP / .NET / Ruby. Flash just displays the data.
This whole thing is like arguing over which is better a pencil or a pen….
Jan 23rd 2008
after thinking about it, I guess you could use a CMS built in flash, but still Pencil vs Pen…
Jan 23rd 2008
I completely and utterly disagree with you, Patrick - and I don’t use flash for websites.
There are plenty of genuine reasons to choose HTML+CSS+JS over Flash, but you are instead looking at reasons not to choose Flash. There are working flash websites out there that really do use the browser back button.
As for the URL example, you’re right that is a poor one but nothing that a little serverside work and a bit of additional effort in Flash could not solve.
Jan 26th 2008
Sooo I left a comment the other day and I don’t see it here, hmmm, moving right along…
Jan 29th 2008
um…… yea google can read SOME flash content… but if you think you’re gonna make an entirely flash site and rank well on google… you should quit web design.
unless you’re trying to rank for something there’s no competition for and your domain name gets you the position.
a non-flash site will always do better on the search engines. everyone knows that. that point was highly valid and completely confirmed.
Jan 29th 2008
Tom,
Search for ‘razr 2′ on Google. The first non-ad result is a micro site done completely in flash. A number one result in a very competitive (2,400,000) search term. It’s ahead of other blog-type sites done with WordPress and Joomla.
Search for ‘nike’ on Google. The Nike + web site is the second result. Again, a very competitive search term (140,000,000), second only to Nike.com.
Your quote “A non-flash site will always do better on the search engines. everyone knows that. That point was highly valid and completely confirmed.”
Both of these sites are ahead of non-flash sites in competitive search categories. Accurate facts are necessary before making blanket statements about what will ‘always’ happen.
Jan 29th 2008
and a follow up –
The razr 2 flash site has a well-known domain name (motorola.com). But 5 results down is an HTML landing page from the same domain. Why would Google place the flash site ahead of the HTML site? Don’t they know your “highly-valid and completely confirmed point?”
Feb 13th 2008
Patrick, great blog you have here but I am so sorry that it seems you have misunderstood the uses of Flash and PHP. The thing that confuses me most is your quote on:
“I wouldn’t want my employee’s working flash for 3 weeks that I could have done with beautiful PHP in 1 day.”
It makes no sense because these are like bananas and oranges, not even close to the same shape of fruit. PHP is a backend programming language while Flash is a front end interactive plugin.
Maybe you could also make a post why Wordpress is wrong wrong wrong for business websites? I hate to say it, but I think it comes with experience that you pick the best tool for the job, not whine about what other people are using and getting hung up on it. All of your assumptions are incorrect. Feel free to look to Aral’s post to get more info. http://aralbalkan.com/1004
This whole talk has been done numerous times, and I really didn’t expect to find it on here. I really do enjoy your other posts and I’ve subscribed, hell I even added you to Twitter. Maybe I’m getting too old for the web design industry (turning 30 this month) or maybe its all the years of seeing tools/languages come and go, yet Flash still remains.
Could we perhaps now have a debate on BB Edit vs. Textmate? I don’t think that has ever been done before!
Feb 22nd 2008
Sigh.
http://www.thinkswedish.com
View source while you’re there.
Feb 24th 2008
Mister you are talking utter bulshit. Please investigate before you start ranting.
History browsing is part of Flex package and Flash is capable of history browsing and SEO optimization trough
fine SWFAddress Javascript implementation.
One example:
http://www.nike.com/index.jhtml?l=nikestore,home
Flash/Flex is one the most powerful web/desktop application development platforms
Thnx for reading
Feb 24th 2008
The problem is that designers don’t always get to choose their own tools. When some buzz-word prone parrot of an exec in charge of getting the site built sees something “real neat” on an all Flash site, well, that’s when other people’s bad choices become everybody’s problem which is why we need to be better at explaining these things in financial terms.
Trust me, if you don’t get why CSS, JS, and (x)html should be used for everything other than putting frame-intensive animation in a box, you’re doing a lot more work than you need to be doing for your sites just to get a look that is easily emulated, underperforms in all categories and has potential to cause you a lot more headaches in the long term.
I don’t know why there as many people out there who want to do everything in Flash as there are but if it’s about fear of learning these other skillsets you shouldn’t have any problem if you’ve managed figure out the ins and outs of Flash.
Feb 24th 2008
Technology choice depends on the content.
If you need corporate site with lots of text content, you will use html.
If you need entertainment industry website you will use lots of flash if not full flash, it’s just serves the purpose. If you need something in-between you can create hybrid site.
Flash developers don’t think that every site needs to be full flash but it’s sad that these days some of you html/css/js developers think that flash is obsolete.
It’s better to have more options for clients and give them cons and pros of all of them when presenting the case then just one.
Feb 25th 2008
Any problem we face can be overcome with a little ingenuity.
Here is a flash wordpress theme. http://motionandcolor.com/wrapper